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  1. #1
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    Are we related to the Hmong?

    They look similar to Northern Thai and Vietnamese so I'm curious...
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  2. #2
    Melting Snowflakes

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    Many people look similar.
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  3. #3
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    Defend to where Hmong you see. Hmong Viet dont look much similar Vietnamese.

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  4. #4
    hi hi, we are all asian so its not a strange thing, i have seen japanese, chinese, vietnamese, hmong, korean,... everywhere, you could say they all look similar.

    The only thing that make us so different is make-up level and culture, money annd education the same applied for human race.

    @Foxever: soooo strereotype... =))
    Last edited by tendoukatsurou; 05-03-2012 at 08:06 PM.
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  5. #5
    Melting Snowflakes

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    don't or do?

    I think Hmong kinda look similar to Vietnamese, except with rounder faces and smaller eyes.



    Some Hmong dude on AF taught me that the word "wash hand" in Hmong and Vietnamese are the same - rua tay

    rua = wash
    tay = hand (sometimes spelled as te in Hmong I think)
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  6. #6
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    I think Hmong look more "northern" than Vietnamese. Also, Hmong are nomadic right?
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  7. #7
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    you think? You're Chinese what do you know about Hmong and Vietnamese?

    Quote Originally Posted by devils666 View Post
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    I think Hmong look more "northern" than Vietnamese. Also, Hmong are nomadic right?
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by good View Post
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    you think? You're Chinese what do you know about Hmong and Vietnamese?
    Actually I'm only part Chinese. And what do you know about Hmong and Chinese? Apparently you don't even know your own country because you didn't know Vietnam was communist.
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  9. #9
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    You're exactly right. Very intelligent. Truly clever.

    Quote Originally Posted by devils666 View Post
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    Actually I'm only part Chinese. And what do you know about Hmong and Chinese? Apparently you don't even know your own country because you didn't know Vietnam was communist.
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  10. #10
    @Doraemon

    Besides looks, how close are the languages?
    I always hear how linguists think Hmong-Mien + Austro-Asiatic languages are similar and Austronesian and Tai-Kadai are similar.
    Do you know any more cognates?

    I see a lot of comparisons between Viet - Chinese, Viet- Tai, Viet- Khmer, but rarely seen any Viet - Hmong discussions.
    I remember seeing maps of languages and Hmong-Mien and Austro-Asiatic languages were neighbors back then.

    Rua and Tay are pretty basic words too.

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  11. #11
    Melting Snowflakes

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    I don't know much of Viet - Hmong cognates, but the Austro-asiatic and Hmong-Mien are supposed to be close at least geographically back then.

    Today many scholars believe that the Hmong occupied the Middle Yangtze whereas the Austro-asiatic occupied the Upper Yangtze. Linguistic analysis showed that these people were originators of rice cultivation since their basic vocabulary stocks are rich in terms for rice and rice-cultivation techniques. There has been no sign of these terms being borrowed as they are all reconstructible to proto-AA and proto-HM. However, the rice terms in AA and HM are quite different, meaning they didn't borrow from each other (whereas other families borrowed their rice terms from these two families), which means the two might have started rice cultivation independently. One archaeology article I read showed that the earliest rice cultivation was found in Upper Yangtze and Middle Yangtze, then spread to the Yangtze delta later. This may go in hand with linguistic records.

    The current Austric theory is that Tai-Kadai joins Austronesian under the Austro-Tai umbrella. Note that Tai-Kadai is a very young language family, so many think it's an offshoot from an older family Austronesian. Meanwhile, Hmong-Mien would join Austro-asiatic under a proposed family called Proto-Yangzian. Like Tai-Kadai, Hmong-Mien is a very young family, so it may be logical that they're an offshoot from Austro-asiatic.


    But that's linguistics. Genetically, Vietnamese are more similar to the Tai-Kadai populations than the current Austro-asiatic and HM populations. One may reason that the current Austro-asiatic populations have been mixed with the so-called Australoid (or whatever you call them) population in their expansion to Southeast Asia. The Tai-Kadai themselves are mixed with Austroasiatic. If you look at the Zhuang and other Daic speakers in China, their predominant Y-haplogroup is O2a (similar to Austro-asiatic). If you stick with the theory that Tai-Kadai is an offshoot from Austronesian, then their haplogroup is supposed to be O1, which is surprisingly only a secondary haplogroup in most Daic populations.

    Meanwhile, many Hmong-Mien groups carry high O2a and O3 that associated with AA populations, if that may show some connection at all or just coincidence.
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  12. #12
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    Looks like a lot of groups (Thai, Vietnamese, Hmong) all ran South to avoid the Chinese war machines. As we move South, we take land from the Khmer empire. So a lot of Cambodians should be hating the Chinese for causing these migrations in the first place.
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  13. #13
    Melting Snowflakes

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    That's modern history. We're talking about the pre-historic period.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Doraemon View Post
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    I don't know much of Viet - Hmong cognates, but the Austro-asiatic and Hmong-Mien are supposed to be close at least geographically back then.

    Today many scholars believe that the Hmong occupied the Middle Yangtze whereas the Austro-asiatic occupied the Upper Yangtze. Linguistic analysis showed that these people were originators of rice cultivation since their basic vocabulary stocks are rich in terms for rice and rice-cultivation techniques. There has been no sign of these terms being borrowed as they are all reconstructible to proto-AA and proto-HM. However, the rice terms in AA and HM are quite different, meaning they didn't borrow from each other (whereas other families borrowed their rice terms from these two families), which means the two might have started rice cultivation independently. One archaeology article I read showed that the earliest rice cultivation was found in Upper Yangtze and Middle Yangtze, then spread to the Yangtze delta later. This may go in hand with linguistic records.

    The current Austric theory is that Tai-Kadai joins Austronesian under the Austro-Tai umbrella. Note that Tai-Kadai is a very young language family, so many think it's an offshoot from an older family Austronesian. Meanwhile, Hmong-Mien would join Austro-asiatic under a proposed family called Proto-Yangzian. Like Tai-Kadai, Hmong-Mien is a very young family, so it may be logical that they're an offshoot from Austro-asiatic.


    But that's linguistics. Genetically, Vietnamese are more similar to the Tai-Kadai populations than the current Austro-asiatic and HM populations. One may reason that the current Austro-asiatic populations have been mixed with the so-called Australoid (or whatever you call them) population in their expansion to Southeast Asia. The Tai-Kadai themselves are mixed with Austroasiatic. If you look at the Zhuang and other Daic speakers in China, their predominant Y-haplogroup is O2a (similar to Austro-asiatic). If you stick with the theory that Tai-Kadai is an offshoot from Austronesian, then their haplogroup is supposed to be O1, which is surprisingly only a secondary haplogroup in most Daic populations.

    Meanwhile, many Hmong-Mien groups carry high O2a and O3 that associated with AA populations, if that may show some connection at all or just coincidence.
    We need more Hmong members so we can talk more about this.

    It does go with history kind of. The Au (Tai-Kadai) took over the Lac (austro-asiatic) and created the kingdom of Au-Lac.
    This was probably when the Austro-asiatic started adopting the Tai languages over Austro-Asiatic, or their was a lot of
    mixing and 01 became secondary compared to bigger populations of 02.

    If you go back further, Van Lang was a kingdom back then in South and Southwestern China mostly made of Austro-Asiatic before the invasion of the Tai peoples.
    I find that Hmong people have a connection to Van Lang too. I remember reading about some Hmong having an ancient seal to from one of the kings of Yelang/Van Lang.
    So Van Lang was maybe a Austro-asiatic/Hmong-Mien Kingdom.

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  15. #15
    Melting Snowflakes

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    I don't think we should correlate linguistic history with the history of any ethnic group.

    Avoid using linguistic history/analysis to make any implication about the history of a kingdom or of an ethnic group, before there's solid evidence.

    Au Lac kingdom is very recent whereas the Tai-Kadai incursion into mainland China (presumably from Hainan or southern Taiwan) most likely occurred in an older time.
    Also, the Au people were known as highland people whereas Lac people were low-landers

    Linguistics, genetics, ethnic groups, kingdom history...They do not go hand in hand as we think.


    Quote Quote
    If this linguistic scenario [The Austro-Tai relation] is accepted, then proto-Daic speakers would have migrated back to the mainland from the southern tip of Taiwan about 4000 BP. At this period, the Chinese mainland would have presented a very different ethnolinguistic picture from today. The main body of the Chinese population would have been further north and there would have been a diverse body of minority ethnic groups, speaking HmongMien, Austroasiatic and other Sino-Tibetan languages (of which Tujia and Bai may well be the only remnants today) as well as entirely lost language phyla. The speakers of Daic would have spread inland slowly, gradually diversifying. Probably their most ancient branches would been assimilated by the southward expansion of the Han in all the areas near the coast. However, most importantly, they would have encountered the early speakers of Austroasiatic and (probably) Hmong-Mien at the point when these language phyla were just initiating their expansion. It would have been at this point that contact would have occurred, hence the surprising cognates between Austronesian and Austroasiatic.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Doraemon View Post
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    I don't think we should correlate linguistic history with the history of any ethnic group.

    Avoid using linguistic history/analysis to make any implication about the history of a kingdom or of an ethnic group, before there's solid evidence.

    Au Lac kingdom is very recent whereas the Tai-Kadai incursion into mainland China (presumably from Hainan or Taiwan) most likely occurred in an older time.
    Also, the Au people were known as highland people whereas Lac people were low-landers

    Linguistics, genetics, ethnic groups, kingdom history...They do not go hand in hand as we think.
    I don't think they go hand in hand completely but it may be changed by history.
    I noticed also that a lot of Hmongs have the Xiong surname, and that is translated to Hng in Vietnamese.
    Remember the 18 Hungs of the Hong Bang dynasty?

    All these info kind of fills in all the connections. Of course it's just speculation but it's interesting.

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  17. #17
    Melting Snowflakes

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    Quote Originally Posted by thumbsUp View Post
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    I don't think they go hand in hand completely but it may be changed by history.
    I noticed also that a lot of Hmongs have the Xiong surname, and that is translated to Hng in Vietnamese.
    Remember the 18 Hungs of the Hong Bang dynasty?

    All these info kind of fills in all the connections. Of course it's just speculation but it's interesting.
    If that's valid at all, it would just means the ancestors of Vietnamese [ethnic group] had some relation to the Hmong, it doesn't speak anything for the entire Austro-asiatic family, whose members are mostly quite different from the Vietnamese presently.

    Ethnic group =/= linguistic group
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  18. #18
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              Ethnicity:   Neanderafrican
    Hong-Kong Taiwan Singapore

    Quote Originally Posted by Doraemon View Post
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    Many people look similar.
    This is true. Besides, paternally the Hmong are closely related to the Chinese and Tibeto Burmans.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Doraemon View Post
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    If that's valid at all, it would just means the ancestors of Vietnamese [ethnic group] had some relation to the Hmong, it doesn't speak anything for the entire Austro-asiatic family, whose members are mostly quite different from the Vietnamese presently.

    Ethnic group =/= linguistic group
    Yeah. That's clear.

    I'm just talking about the Hmong and Vietnamese relationship right now.

    But also speculate on what might've caused migration for other speakers of Austro-Asiatic, or Hmong-Mien/Tai-Kadai etc.
    Other ethnic groups may have a different history or maybe similar also.

    I just find how the Hmong, Vietnamese, and certain Tai have a history that seems to be connected.

    Note that these 3 have very similar traditions in Bronze culture too.
    I always thought Hmong clothing look similar to clothing on Dong Son culture.
    Especially those ceremonial/festival clothings.

    Vietnamese depiction of what it might've looked like:


    But I don't think they had consideration about how cold it was where these Dong Son people lived.

    It might've looked something more like this:


    I don't think Kingdoms back then were specific to any ethnic group.
    They were most likely a confederation of different tribes or ethnic groups with different and/or similar culture and languages.

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    Last edited by thumbsUp; 05-04-2012 at 01:42 PM.
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  20. #20
    Melting Snowflakes

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWuji View Post
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    This is true. Besides, paternally the Hmong are closely related to the Chinese and Tibeto Burmans.
    Hm...Is this based on distribution of O3-haplogroup?

    If it is, then consider that O3 has a Southern origin and could exist independently in Southern populations.
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